If waterboarding is effective and not torture, it makes no sense that it stopped being used 5 years ago.

That being said, based on the testimony, I concede that the US only tortures a very little bit.

Can you even see my point from where you’re standing, Sean?  You went an awfully long way away to make your little funny/insult/wry observation/dig.

It’s odd.  I don’t recall discussing anything about if waterboarding was torture or the efficacy of the technique.  I remember posting about the hysteria some displayed over the very idea, and how they turned that hysteria personal.

I do see your point. I was, obviously, more interested in the larger picture regarding the President’s assertion that the US does not torture and not the personal attacks angle (which I don’t recall ever engaging in personally).

(and my dig wasn’t directly at you, it was directly at the President, in case that isn’t clear)

And because the dead horse isn’t quite dust yet, Hayden said they used on three detainees, not three times. And, if it was a ticking clock situation that warranted torture, then the authorization would surely be defensible in whatever court is appropriate. Furthermore, in admitting that they tortured prisoners, they only put to rest, provided one believes them (which goes to the first part of my comment), the issue of the ongoing use of waterboarding. They don’t get a pass for past use, though.

Sean why don’t you go fuck yourself with your loaded statements.

assuming they are telling the truth now…

assuming they are telling the truth now…

In this day of FIOA requests, the ease of data mining, and the relative speed with which most of this data is leaked out, to put out a statement about something this touchy and lie about any part it would be far past moronic. That said, yeah it’s a weasel statement in a way. I don’t doubt for a moment that they WBed these guys more than one time each.

The problem with this whole situation is that there is no clearly agreed upon definition of what torture is, especially when it comes to waterboarding. Is performing a physical act upon someone that leaves no physical damage torture? I’m sure some would say yes because it’s psychologically torturing. Some would say no since almost all interrogations involve some degree or another of psychological “torture” and to deny these other methods would render us far less effective interrogators.

An interesting way to look at it might be, Would this technique ever be used to give someone pain and/or humiliation as an act of vengeance, payback, example making, etc...? I think of ganster stuff first I guess. Breaking knees, sure. Pulling fingernails, yeah. Electrocution, absolutely. These are all things that people have been tortured by because of the great pain and permanent damage that is done.

If my bookie ever decides that I owe him too much money and he’s gonna waterboard me, I’m kind of ok with that, given the options.

In this day of FIOA requests, the ease of data mining, and the relative speed with which most of this data is leaked out, to put out a statement about something this touchy and lie about any part it would be far past moronic.

They didn’t really have a choice. Negroponte “accidentially” let it slip in a recent interview that “waterboarding hadn’t been done in years”, and so the White House had to respond. Until that point, there had been no confirmation that it had or had not been used (and that any program that might have used it was classified - which is the counter punch to the FIOA).

I concede that the US only tortures a very little bit.

Would you “concede” that the terror groups tortured infidels a great deal more (not to mention the occasional random bombing of public gathering places), while you STILL refuse to condemn them for those actions?

Or is it only the eeeeevil US that is to be condemned?

I wonder how many Americans had their heads cut off on camera?

In what that I’ve ever written gives you the idea that I support the torturing of anyone by anyone? I know you don’t venture over to Lee’s site much anymore, but I’ve been saying that the West shouldn’t stoop to the terrorist’s level. I like to think we’re better than that, myself.

But, for the simple minded, I hereby condemn and rebuke and say “bad dog” to any country, head of state, representative of government, agent acting on behalf of a government, private contractor, private citizen, armed insurgent, lawful enement combatant, unlawful enemy conbatant, neighbourhood dog collector, tax collector, neighborhood watch association, terrorist organization, affiliate terrorist organization, terrorist sympathizer, terrorist website visitor, left-wing pundit, right-wing pundit, and anyone else on the planet save for Jack Bauer, Chuck Norris and/or Simon Cowell, for using, supporting the use of, or justifying the use of torture in any situation other than a known ticking clock situation and whereafter such a situation is resolved they did not throw themselves at the mercy of the courts begging forgiveness.

Christ man, was that plain enough for your thick skull? You really are obtuse sometimes/most times.

(sorry Jim)

In what that I’ve ever written gives you the idea that I support the torturing of anyone by anyone?

Because, right up until the moment you had issued your omnibus declaration, you had only accused/condemned the US for “torturing” by using waterboarding, while saying ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the ongoing depredations continuing in an ongoing basis, using REAL torture methods.

Fascinating concept of liberals…

Three instances of waterboarding = “wholesale torture by the Imperialist Amerikkkan mercenaries”

Millions of abortions per year = “rare”

But nice to see that you are finally waking up to reality. If, in fact, you are doing so.

This is why I tried to re-rail this conversation.  How in the sweet fuck did we get on abortion?

I was making the simple point that all the hateful rhetoric over this almost-never-used thing only serves to make bitter enemies where good-natured opposition would serve us all better.  And allow for more interesting discussions that didn’t devolve into personal wars of attrition.

Thanks for demonstrating what;s wrong with everyone who partook in this flare-up over the last two years or so, boys.  I suppose in a way you were on topic.

I’m here to help.

How in the sweet fuck did we get on abortion?

By me pointing out what definitions liberal use for “rare”. (I could have used some other inherent contradiction so common among liberals and their ilk - such as gun control, the GWoT, energy policy, etc. - but abortion was the first one to pop to mind.)

Don’t tell me you hadn’t noticed it, because you appear to have written this post specifically BECAUSE you noticed the dichotomy.

You’re here to help by accusing that the US tortures.  Go fuck yourself sean.