Amazon.com Widgets
I AM JOHN GALT.
Right Thoughts...not right wing, just right.
Prev: Monkey business - Next: Kewliez - Home

Fri, 27 May 2005 07:55:06

Mea Culpa

Oops!


Posted by JimK at 07:55 AM on May 27, 2005
Permalink | Trackbacks (0) | Email to a friend |
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Categories: NewsThe Middle EastThe Stupidity Of ManU.S. Military
Tags:



Comments:

#1  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 05/27 at 10:42 AM -

I’m sure he did it free from duress and it has been independantly verified.

Toilet flushing: false
Other Koran mishandlings: true

JimK#2  Posted by JimK United States on 05/27 at 11:32 AM -

I’m seriously considering buying a Koran and pissing on it every day until the word “jihad” is stricken from the militant muslim vocabulary.  Maybe “fatwa” too.  I could give a FUCK about mishandling of the book.

#3  Posted by Drumwaster United States on 05/27 at 01:18 PM -

Sean, when we start rioting because they burn American flags or because they used the Bible as toilet paper (while looting the Church of the Nativity of any valuables), then they get to be pissed about alleged maltreatment of printed words on paper, m’kay?

#4  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 05/28 at 01:40 PM -

“When people like myself say American values must be emulated and America is a bastion of freedom, we get Guantánamo Bay thrown in our faces. When we talk about the America of Jefferson and Hamilton, people back home say to us: ‘That is not the America we are dealing with. We are dealing with the America of imprisonment without trial.’” - Husain Haqqani, a Pakistani scholar sympathetic to the war on terror.

So piss on your koran all you want and see how well it helps the cause.

JimK#5  Posted by JimK United States on 05/28 at 03:17 PM -

Way to nail it Sean...WE’RE the bad guys.

Excellent perspective you have there.

#6  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 05/29 at 01:19 PM -

It isn’t about right and wrong.. it is about perception. You can be “right” all you want but the west will NEVER win the war on terrorism unless it can change the perception of the west in Islamic countries. Do you think pissing on a koran will help or hinder this cause?

JimK#7  Posted by JimK United States on 05/29 at 02:53 PM -

Sean, why are you acting as though I actually DID it?

What the fuck is your problem, man?  You pretend to not have a bias against anything not left of Canadian left, but even me, someone you know, you treat ME as though *I* were the bad guy.  I’m sick of it.

Terrorists are murdering people by the hundreds and your mouth is completely closed on the subject.  Not ONE FUCKING WORD of criticism for murderers and suicide bombers, but hoo boy, you can’t fucking WAIT to attack me for *talking* about pissing on a BOOK.  A goddamned bundle of paper printed by a goddamned capitalist enterprise and bought and sold in a capitalist manner.

Meanwhile, Muslims LITERALLY wipe their ass with the bible in protest and where’s your outrage?  Terrorists cut off the heads of anyone...Muslim, western, it doesn’t matter, they kuill anyone, and you remain silent.

I throw off a frustrated line about pissing on a koran in protest to fucking JIHAD, and you flip out on me as though *I* am the fucking cause of the thousands of years of violence between the Middle East and anyone who doesn’t live and think exactly like them.

It’s bullshit Sean, and I’m sick of it.  You owe me a fucking apology for it and you *know* it.

Seriously...where the fuck is your sense of proportion and logic?  Where is your moral indignation at the murderers?  Nowhere, not here, not Lee’s, not on your own LJ do I EVER see you raise a single word of criticism against anyone BUT the US.  You’re never at a loss for ways to insult and criticize any and everything about us.

If that’s all you have to say, why am I listening?  And if it isn’t all you have to say...then *show it* by saying something else for a change.

#8  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 05/30 at 05:03 AM -

Oh please, boo fucking hoo quit playing the martyr.

Do you disagree with what I wrote, in that do you think that how the Muslim world perceives west is somehow irrelevant? I know you’re a smart guy so of course your answer will be “yes, perception matters”. You know it. I know it. The administration knows it.

And as for my “silence” on the terrible things that are done against the US.. well, thanks for paying such close attention to everything I’ve ever said on your blog and on Lee’s blog. I’d guess that’s over 2000 posts you’re recalling. I post criticism of those who should know better and behave better because I know they are “better than their actions” when behave badly. I don’t post criticism about every ruthless thug that kills people because, frankly, that should be fucking obvious. It is a “well duh” moment that I think murdering innocent people is bad. Not exactly a shocker there. If anyone assumes that I’m somehow not disgusted when terrorists kill people simply because I don’t put a post in every forum I’m on everytime news breaks (and have the requisite 35 magnetic bumper stickers), they they either don’t know me very well or are idiots.

JimK#9  Posted by JimK United States on 05/30 at 11:24 AM -

Sean...you’re so full of shit I can smell it from here.

You spend all your “political” time online attacking and criticizing the US.  That’s all you do.  Ever.  I went back through your LJ, and minus the Canadian politics, almost every political post you made was some form of slight or attack on something in the States.  Every political post, save for maybe what, three out of a few hundred, you have made here has been an insult or attack on something American.

If I’m lying, show me.  Show me more than a meager handful of exceptions, and I’ll lay HUNDREDS of examples on you to support my theory.

It’d be nice if you spent a fraction of that effort actually pointing even your pinky finger at murderers and terrorists, but I guess you’re too busy attacking me for a frustrated comment that NEVER BORE ACTION.

Talk about who doesn’t know whom. 

And again I ask, where in the FUCK is your sense of proportion?

#10  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 05/30 at 12:54 PM -

Well, I appreciate the effort of you going back through my 3000 posts on this blog and Lee’s and on my own blog. What a staggering waste of your time. On the blogs there is no sense of proportion, you’re right. Last time I checked, on 2/3 blogs you listed (making up the overwhelming bulk of my political postings. I choose not to make my personal blog a political blog, for the most part.) I don’t get to pick the topics being discussed. When there is a posting about something I disagree with, I voice my opinion. That you are somehow shocked, SHOCKED, that I, as a secular liberal, am opposed to a good number of things a evangelical conservative administration does speaks volumes. I’ve repeatedly voiced my support for the overriding principles of the war on terror.. but I have and will continue to criticize the administrations many failures in carrying out that war (and whatever other topic you and Lee decide to post on). Proportion? I don’t feel I have any need to provide one and, frankly, I don’t care if you think that this is the be all and end all of my political commentary (unless you’re also haxoring into my email box as well, of course). The thought that you would provide some sense of proportion if Kerry won or if Hillary wins is completely laughable, so get off your high horse.

And again, get off your martyr chopping block, ok? You opened the “personal” line of attack by saying you were personally “seriously thinking” about doing such an infantile thing as buying a koran to pee on it. Do you actually think that doing such an act would actually accomplish anything? Would it actually make you feel like “hey, I’m making a strong positive contribution to the War on Terror”? Would you do this in a nice public place so everyone could see your bold political statement (you could pre-bottle the pee, of course) or would this be a private act of defiance? Maybe you could webcast it.

JimK#11  Posted by JimK United States on 05/30 at 04:28 PM -

Sean, that was pretty low, even for you.

You’ve lost the plot, Sean.  You’re dead wrong here.

As for balance...Well gee...how many times have Lee and I posted about problems with this administration?  Our blogs over the last few months alone are proof that your words ring hollow.

You’re nowhere near the zen moderate with a left lean you’d like to think...you’re a fairly radical leftist who, when challenged, just attacks and insults with increasing levels of vitriol until nobody gives a fuck anymore.

But whatever.  You’re right and I’m wrong, even though I didn’t actually DO the thing you’re attacking me for.

The whole point of this post orginally was that something that people believed to have happened may not be true.  And along you come, blinders on, spouting your usual anti-US vitriol.  I get frustrated and mention desecrating a koran (to protest MURDERERS, mind you) and you flip out on me as though *I* actually did it. and to this moment you’re still acting like I did or even would in real life.

You’re wrong, you’ve far exceeded the limits of a political discussion, and now you want to make it a personal mudfest that involves other aspects of our lives?

What the fuck precisely is your problem, Sean?

#12  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 05/31 at 01:40 AM -

“that involves other aspects of our lives”

What the hell are you talking about?

You made this about you, not me. I say again, I did not make this about you until YOU made it about you. You’re the one that read a false personal attack from a fairly simple question (and then promptly didn’t answer such a simple question): How will the wanton and admitted desecration (see, by interrogators or by private citizens, of a holy book aid in the US’s (and the other coalition countries) active goals of getting moderate Muslims on your side? 

I’m such a leftist that I support such traditional “leftist” platforms as: the war on terror, lower taxes, fiscal conservatism (though, not I’m absolutist), personal and collective responsibility, the ability for individuals to own a hand gun for protection, eliminating trade barriers and subsidies, less power for unions… etc etc etc. Real leftist there, Jim.

#13  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 05/31 at 01:45 AM -

It was never about you and your sarcastic “pissed on koran”.. it was about the mentality (much more prevalent than one individual) that somehow what “they” think about “us” is irrelevant. Your “pissed on koran” was the obvious example to use to make my point… but you failed to see that I was directly making the point that perception matters and read some kind of personal attack out of it… couldn’t be further from the truth.

morganafq#14  Posted by morganafq United States on 05/31 at 06:42 AM -

Hey, Sean. Donna here.

STOP.

Let’s back up a second, okay? You did in fact start this. You came after Jim - quite voraciously IMHO - when he made a joke about pissing on a Koran everyday. Now… please don’t tell me you thought he was seriously going to do it. I fully believe that you know Jim better than to think he would actually go out, buy a Koran, and urinate on it every day. So let’s just get that one straight right here - Jim didn’t piss on a Koran, had no real plans of pissing on a Koran, and I don’t believe for a second that you could think he would piss on a Koran.

Now, given that you and I both know that Jim would never follow through on his joke… why would you get so hostile towards him? Right up front you got in his face, asking him how pissing on a Koran would help the cause. And then, when Jim called you on your hostility, you told him to stop playing the martyr and began a line of personal insults that, to me, was rather offensive and went far beyond the scope of the article. Why? What purpose did all this serve? What was you goal here in these comments? If it was to make some sort of realistic argument about the subject of the post, you failed miserably. However, if it was to simply be mean and insulting… well… you succeeded.

I’m not speaking for Jim - I wouldn’t even try. I’m just speaking as me to you here. From where I sit, you took this thing WAY out of bounds and have insulted Jim personally. I hope that you will take a minute, sit back, read what you’ve written again and reevaluate how you came across here.

Thank you for listening.

#15  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 06/01 at 06:23 PM -

With all due respect Donna, I was responding to something Jim posted and directly asked me, so I have no intention of “stopping” so long as there is something to reply to.

I’m sorry that you and Jim think that it was a personal attack on him. I disagree and I’ll leave it at that.

morganafq#16  Posted by morganafq United States on 06/02 at 07:07 AM -

Okay, Sean… you don’t want to stop and think about how other people were viewing your statements? You don’t feel you need a moment to reflect on how you arrived at this juncture, arguing and insulting your friends? Okay. Fine with me.

You say you won’t stop so long as there’s something to reply to. Fine again. So what were you replying to when this begin? That’s what I’d really like to know right now. Were you trying to say that you really did think Jim is the kind of person that would go out, buy a Koran and urinate on it? Was that the point that started this? Jim’s an evil bastard who would piss on a book? No… that can’t be it… at least I *hope* not....

Okay… how about this one. You were wondering why on earth anyone would care even *IF* Jim, a completely ordinary citizen with absolutely no pull in the international world, did in fact buy a Koran and piss on it. I mean… that *IS* a really good point! Suppose Jim DID go and buy a Koran and pissed on it every single day as some sort of a statement. Let’s even say he webcast each pissing and sold commenerative bottles of urine. I mean… why would anyone even care about that? It’s not like anything Jim, being the ordinary g guy that he is, would have even the slightest impact on an foreign relations of any kind. Who cares if some crazy guy in Connecticut pisses on a Koran! He’d be written off an a nutter and that would be that.

Oh.... wait… that can’t be your point… because it’s mine. And it’s the reason this whole debate is one of the stupiest things I’ve read on here in a long time, and you should know better.

So… what *was* your point again, Sean?

#17  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 06/02 at 10:49 AM -

I’ve made my point repeatedly above. I don’t see why I should restate it again.

JimK#18  Posted by JimK United States on 06/02 at 01:25 PM -

No, you’ve gone out of your way to avoid my direct questions.  I’m going to ask you to specifically address the points I raise here now.

You started this by making a statement, Sean.  You did not create some grand esoteric statement in the abstract about war, man...war.

You came after *me* personally.  Shall I quote you?

So piss on your koran all you want and see how well it helps the cause.

Instantly you took the position that I would actually do it in real life (we’ll leave the philosophy of the act itself for another time).  If that was NOT your position, no one, not even the Amazing Kreskin, would be able to tell from the words YOU chose to write. Do you deny this? 

Later, I asked you point blank to explain why you would take such a position.

Sean, why are you acting as though I actually DID it?

You never answered the question.  You still haven’t.  Instead you chose to say things like “Oh please, boo fucking hoo quit playing the martyr.”

Cute, but it doesn’t adress why you felt the need to transfer your anti-Bush sentiments to me PERSONALLY, over this particular issue.

I asked AGAIN, the same question, in the form of a statement that I placed in bold type:

and to this moment you’re still acting like I did or even would in real life.

To which you backpedaled like Lance Armstrong with:

It was never about you and your sarcastic “pissed on koran”

What.  The.  Fuck?

You opened with “ So piss on your koran all you want and see how well it helps the cause.” Don’t try to pretend you weren’t attacking me very specifically over the Koran comment, Sean.  This *is* a written medium.  Your post is right up there...it’s not like we’re relying on memory here.

I’m asking you to be honest here and tell me why.  Why you insisted on treating *me* as though I had actually performed this act, why you repeatedly raised the issue, why you repeatedly escalated the vitriol, over a throwaway comment designed to PROTEST MURDERS AND TERRORISTS.

Here’s what I see: You spent a shitload of energy attacking me over something I didn’t actually do, and you spend almost zero energy ever (much less in the context of this discussion where it would have been most appropriate) mentioning the terrorists and murderers I was complaining about in the first fucking place.  And that, my friend, shows a political bias that is way, way out of balance.

I’ll ask my question again:  Why did you treat me as though I had actually bought a Koran at a bookstore, taken it home and emptied my bladder onto the damned thing?

And can you honestly say with 100% truthfullness that you wouldn’t have cheered, even if only inwardly, if I had talked about pissing on a Bible instead?

I think we’ve shared enough joking around together to know the answer to that question.

So...why, Sean?  Why did you treat me as though I had actually done it, and why did you try to claim it was never about that when it was all you kept writing about?  You raised the spectre that “they either don’t know me very well or are idiots.”

So which is it, Sean?  Do you not know me very well after almost eleven years, or are you an idiot?

Or is there a third explanation, one which you have, after my repeated asking, yet to divulge?

#19  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 06/02 at 02:19 PM -

So much for “stopping”, eh?

What is amazing to me is that in your first reply after the koran comment you appear to “get it” when you say “WE” not “I’M”. It wasn’t about YOU, though your comment perfectly encapsulated the point I was making. Whether or not you actually went out and did it, which fucking DUH of course I don’t see you doing, was irrelevant ... it was the underling mentality that I was addressing (that may or may not apply to you personally). It wasn’t about you pissing on the koran specifically, it was about the larger picture (as summed up in the quotation I provided) of koran mistreatment and how that impacts the perception of the West in the Muslim community. I think my point was self-evident and I think you either completely missed it or ignored it because then somehow this became about you.

That you somehow got, as I (and frankly, others) see it, overly defensive and took personal offense to the original comment is unfortunate because it wasn’t then, nor is it now, the spirit of the comment. From there it spiralled downhill and that is also unfortunate. I see nothing I should or will apoligize for.

JimK#20  Posted by JimK United States on 06/02 at 02:35 PM -

Wow.  You still never answered a simple question.  Kinda lame, and says a lot.

As for others?  I could give a flying fuck what anyone else thinks.  Anyone who has an opinion can either say it to me, or they can fuck RIGHT off.  Like I don’t know how backstabby and snarky certain people are?  Fuck ‘em if they won’t say it to my face.

It’s a damn shame, Sean...I really thouhgt you’d have the balls to actually address such a simple question.  I thouhgt you’d be honest with me.  I guess I’m an idiot *and* I don’t know you.

Oh, and the “stop” comment was not about stopping the discussion, snarkyboy.  You know that already, though.  Especially in the face of seeing “Okay, Sean… you don’t want to stop and think...” which is self-evident to anyone who isn’t being a snarky asshole.

It was about getting you to pause and think for a moment.  Again, you already knew that but couldn’t resist the dig...I know.  It’s hard to not be an asshole.  Clearly *I* understand that concept.  Fact remains, you were and are being an asshole.  But hey...that’s your right.

Donna...let this go.  If Sean wants to stick to his guns, let him.  I love ya, kid, but you don’t have to get involved.

jo-jo#21  Posted by jo-jo United States on 06/02 at 02:48 PM -

DISCLAIMER: i’m not getting involved in this battle, and i am just offering my uninvited opinion, and i think i’ll just say i’m hopping out for one comment and then going back in hiding, and have no intention of engaging in any sort of debate.  i merely offer the following as an unbiased observer.

with due respect, jim.... when sean said “So piss on your koran all you want and see how well it helps the cause,” i certainly did not take that to mean “YOU.  JIMK.  STOP PISSING ON THAT HOLY BOOK!” to the contrary, i took it to mean “so one could piss on one’s koran all one wants.” there is nothing in the context that leads me to believe a litteral interpretation of those words had been intended.

IMHO, i can certainly see why you would be offended under your interpretation of what sean said, but i just truly did not and do not see your interpretation supported by the context, nor do i believe any of what sean said was the personal attack you took it to be. 

and now, i take the pussy way out and go back to lurk mode. ;)

jo-jo#22  Posted by jo-jo United States on 06/02 at 02:52 PM -

p.s. jim, i posted that comment prior to seeing your most recent, and was not replying in any way re: “others"… was merely a coincidence

JimK#23  Posted by JimK United States on 06/02 at 03:24 PM -

DAMMIT.

I had a nice fucking reply all typed up and formatted, and my “preview” function is borked and it;s gone.

Cock.  Sucker.

Anyway, the gist of it was jo, no worries, you came here and said it to me.  That’s all I ever ask when it comes to that whole “others agree” line of discussion.  If you agree or disagree, don’t tell someone behind their back, say that shit.  So no problem...you step up and say that shit.

Christ that was more eloquent the first time.  :)

As for this whole mess...I’m too tired to give a fuck anymore, and I mean that physically, as I have not slept well since Donna’s medicine experiment went wrong.  (NOT SAID FOR SYMPATHY!  Just saying I’m actually tired, not mentally tired!)

I saw Sean barking at me for something I didn’t do.  I wanted to know why.  He sees it differently.  So be it.  I will agree to disagree if he will.  Sean, I’m certainly not going to carry a grudge over this crap.  I’d rather hate your height, or your devastating good looks, or the fact that you’re Canadian.  :)

Goddamned hippy.  She shows up and I’m all flowers and love and “dude, the Haight.” Where’s Cartman when you need him?

jo-jo#24  Posted by jo-jo United States on 06/02 at 03:32 PM -

*nod*

i see my work here is done.

;)

#25  Posted by hamster United States on 06/02 at 03:37 PM -

“When people like myself say American values must be emulated and America is a bastion of freedom, we get Guantánamo Bay thrown in our faces. When we talk about the America of Jefferson and Hamilton, people back home say to us: ‘That is not the America we are dealing with. We are dealing with the America of imprisonment without trial.’” - Husain Haqqani, a Pakistani scholar sympathetic to the war on terror.

So piss on your koran all you want and see how well it helps the cause.

And when people say to me that Islam is a peace loving religion and it’s followers are mostly level headed folks who just want to worship their god their way, people like myself say, “That is not the Islam we are dealing with. We are dealing with the Islam of chopping of people’s heads, and flying our planes into our buildings, and a culture of death that turn the afformentioned peace loving people into either future martyrs, or victims of other martyrs”.

Quote me on that jackass.

It isn’t about right and wrong.. it is about perception. You can be “right” all you want but the west will NEVER win the war on terrorism unless it can change the perception of the west in Islamic countries. Do you think pissing on a koran will help or hinder this cause?

So it’s up to us, the horrible Koran mishandlers to change their perception about us? Get a clue. They hate us because we exist, and they’re not interested in trying to convert us. Pissing on a Koran will what, Sean? Make them hate me a little more than they do now? If I go through my entire life, never pissing on a Koran, will it make them hate me any less? Do you really think it matters to them?
-Scott

#26  Posted by hamster United States on 06/02 at 03:42 PM -

Perhaps I’d be a little more understanding if all they did was TALK ABOUT beheading people on the internet, instead of, y’know, ACTUALLY DOING IT!

BTW - I’ve been a lurker here for about a year and never got riled up enough to register - congrats sean - you’re enough of an idiot to get me to do something.

#27  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 06/02 at 03:48 PM -

I saw Sean barking at me for something I didn’t do.  I wanted to know why.  He sees it differently.  So be it.  I will agree to disagree if he will.  Sean, I’m certainly not going to carry a grudge over this crap.  I’d rather hate your height, or your devastating good looks, or the fact that you’re Canadian.  :)

And I’ll hate your gun ranges (one of the few things I miss about Tampa), your speedy MRI availbility, and your awesome dSLR camera. :-)

Hamster: It isn’t about changing the perception of the extreminsts. They are too far gone to care about. It is about Akbar Moderate, who I truly think is the majority in Muslim society. I’d hazard a guess that if you asked Akbar what he cared about more: The alleged mishandling of a terrorist suspect or the alleged mishandling of a Koran that they would overwhelmingly pick the latter because it is personal to them. I agree that for the most fundamentalist Islamists it doesn’t matter what the West does.. they’d hate us no matter what. But I’d wager that it is the Koran that would turn a moderate pro-American (or West) muslim into a moderate anti-American (or West) muslim. It is that kind of shift that the West should be actively trying to prevent.

#28  Posted by hamster United States on 06/02 at 04:08 PM -

I’d hazard a guess that if you asked Akbar what he cared about more: The alleged mishandling of a terrorist suspect or the alleged mishandling of a Koran that they would overwhelmingly pick the latter because it is personal to them.

I’d wager that it is the Koran that would turn a moderate pro-American (or West) muslim into a moderate anti-American (or West) muslim. It is that kind of shift that the West should be actively trying to prevent.

Who do you think it was that was rioting and killing their own people over a damn book? If THAT is what passes for a moderate muslim, then there is little we can do, short of converting, to appease even them. The alleged mishandling of a Koran, led to THEIR OWN SELVES “mishandling” 16 of their own friends and neighbors.

and yeah - mishandling is a euphamism for “VIOLENTLY KILLING”

ps - I’m not intending to make this personal, and am sorry for calling you both an idiot and jackass in my previous posts - thank you for not desending to my level in your reply.

#29  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 06/02 at 04:09 PM -

hamster:

Perhaps I’d be a little more understanding if all they did was TALK ABOUT beheading people on the internet, instead of, y’know, ACTUALLY DOING IT!

While I appreciate what you’re saying, I think you’ll find that most Muslims aren’t beheading people..

Lets say you have a scale of 1-10, with 1 being a secular Arab apple-pie eating baseball player and 10 being a chop the heads off on the internet type.

I see my my Akbar is somewhere in the 5 range.. he doesn’t have any particular problem with America but isn’t actively speaking out against the terrorists (or for America).. just quietly doing his thing. He is the one that we (the West) want to a) remain on our side, b) come further to our side and c) influence others to come to our side. It is this guy’s opinion we should care deeply about… not the 10 guy. It is the 5 that could go either way. Unfortunately, the West won’t get much credit for, as Chris Rock says, “Doing what its supposed to do” because no one ever does (i.e. not mishandling the Koran), it will catch shit for the converse. Does the same principle apply to terrorists? I have no idea. I hope it does… but frankly, it is irrelevant because we are not in control of their influence power.. we are in control of ours and we should manage it very carefully.. not by covering up or by ignoring problems but rather by taking steps to ensure that problems don’t arise and to punish and correct problems when they do.

BTW - I’ve been a lurker here for about a year and never got riled up enough to register - congrats sean - you’re enough of an idiot to get me to do something.

And here I thought I wouldn’t accomplish anything today.

#30  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 06/02 at 04:13 PM -

“Who do you think it was that was rioting and killing their own people over a damn book?”

Extremists, extremist supporters and other assorted fundamentalists. Besides, how much influence the Newsweek story had on the root cause of the riots is quite debateable.

“ps - I’m not intending to make this personal, and am sorry for calling you both an idiot and jackass in my previous posts - thank you for not desending to my level in your reply.”

Thanks.
(You have no idea how much retraint it took to go with just sarcasm). :-)

#31  Posted by hamster United States on 06/02 at 04:29 PM -

It is that kind of shift that the West should be actively trying to prevent.

I think I’d rather we spend more time actively trying to keep people from getting their heads chopped off. There is so much we can do to offend them and so little we can do to appease them that it comes down to a point where we’re no longer looking out for our own best interests, but for theirs - and that makes no kind of sense at all. I defy you to find a country in the history of the world that made its decisions for the greater good of anybody but itself and its citizens. And yes, that includes the great white north…

#32  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 06/02 at 04:47 PM -

Making decisions that won’t offend Akbar “5” is in the US’s best interest, though.

I’d say that the US’s decision to go to War in Iraq (and Kuwait) was in large part for the greater good of the people who live in Iraq and had very little to do with the lives of the people living in the US (the whole “democracy” thing). I would also say the same thing applies to Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia… I could be misunderstanding what you mean by “made its decisions”.

#33  Posted by hamster United States on 06/02 at 05:17 PM -

Much of the problem as I see it tho - is that the religious and political (is there really a difference over there) leaders pretty much wiped out many of the Acbars 1-4 during Sadam’s regime. And when Acbar 5 comes out and decries the beheading of civilians in his country, and the riots that kill his own countrymen, then maybe I’ll care what his perception of America is.

I’d say that the US’s decision to go to War in Iraq (and Kuwait) was in large part for the greater good of the people who live in Iraq

I’m inclined to agree with you on that - but I doubt that that is the perception of your hypothetical Acbar 5 - which is what this debate was started about in the first place. Their perception of our actions.

#34  Posted by Sean Galbraith Canada on 06/02 at 05:49 PM -

From what I understand, pre-war Iraq was one of the few Muslim countries where religious leaders and political leaders WERE separate. Of course, in the case of Iraq this wasn’t exactly a benefit to the people there…

I’d say that in Iraq most people think that the US did it for noble reasons on their behalf. If they didn’t, the situation there would be truly dire. In the rest of the Muslim world, though, I think the US has had a really tough time getting its message across and has had some significant setbacks along the way that have it behind the 8-Ball going forward.


Post a Comment:

The trackback URL for this entry is: http://www.right-thoughts.us/index.php/trackback/1866/m9ELqurQ/

Trackbacks:

No trackbacks yet.